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#1 2008-08-27 11:51:07

Rook
Pilgrim
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 3710
Website

Is criticism an art?

Since I've been mostly blogging about webcomics, I'm (sadly) more attune to the internal controversies that go on within the community.  This particular argument, though, crosses over to several artforms, including writing.  ESPECIALLY including writing.

Long story short: Scott Kurtz of PvP made mention that an artist shouldn't be influenced by online criticism.  This apparently touched off a perfect storm of arguments, counter-arguments, and weird tangents.  Much is encapsulated in this Newsrama post:

Newsrama: Kurtz vs. the critics

The real action is in the comments section.  Kurtz argues that critics are wrong to elevate their work higher than the things they're criticizing.  The critics shot back saying that the works of Roger Ebert and Pauline Kael are more memorable and long-lasting than the things they reviewed, thus it's art.

Now, while Scott Kurtz is quite abrasive in his responses (he comes off much better in podcasts, where he doesn't sound quite so confrontational), I tend to agree with him.  Mainly because I can't imagine Roger Ebert himself would elevate his writings to the status of, say, a Robert Altman or a Martin Scorcese movie.

However, this might be my opinion because I also understand that criticism on this particular genre (webcomics) is oftentimes infantile and, to be frank, quite bad.  (Part of my incredulity with the argument is that I have actually read some of the "works" these writers have produced.)  I understand that there are some of you who work in fanzines and have produced far more polished works.

Would you consider your criticism to be an artform?   Or is it merely some sort of public service?

Last edited by Rook (2008-08-27 11:51:34)


"You should be like Calvin. His best friend was a tiger, he always went on dope adventures, and if anything stood in his way, he just peed on it." --- Troy (Don Glover) on Community

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#2 2008-08-27 12:07:16

Sahi
Mantis
From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 36193
Website

Re: Is criticism an art?

Well I would never consider MY criticism art. But then I wouldn't consider my writing art either. :) But to write really good criticism truly is an art in my opinion. But then good criticism doesn't just put a torch to what it criticizes, IMHO.


"I'm a much nicer person online" - Aan'Allein

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#3 2008-08-27 15:35:58

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Ohio
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 2063

Re: Is criticism an art?

Well.. seeing "criticism" and "webcomics" in the same sentence automatically makes me say No, webcomics criticizing games is not art. But, thinking about it, when webcomics criticize a game, they don't come out and say "This game sucked." Ok sometimes they do. The one I know most about (because I read it) is Ctrl-Alt-Del and Ethan goes a little bonkers over a bad game, but that's his character. The author can express his opinions through his characters, but he has to make sure it doesn't come off as something that's way off base. For example, Ethan goes loopy for MMOs. For him to suddenly hate them wouldn't be in character (well... it might...) so it wouldn't make sense. So, for webcomics, dialogue and character development are an art, so critcizing I think is, too.

For overall criticism though... well, I think that's a bad word to use, if we're trying to argue it's an artform. Critique or review will certainly come across more positively, and constructive-critcism, while not as marketable and appealing to the masses, is also a good choice. But people don't read newspapers to read the latest contructive-criticism of the new releases, they read the reviews. Reviews just point out the good and the bad and come with a star rating. I don't think they count as criticism since they don't usually have a "Since the lead actor's performance turned out less than stellar, I believe this actor would have been a better choice, with his history of performing in these types of roles..." or some such lather. It's usually "This wasn't the actor's best movie." And the word critiques just makes me think of food magazines for some reason, and I never read up on any fancy restaurants, so I'm stuck there.

My opinion? Yes, it's an artform, because you're selling your skill--how well you write determines if you keep getting paid. You have to keep yourself marketable in a (probably) vicious field. You have to be *liked* by your readers. You have to help the company sell newspapers and magazines, the same as any other journalist. If journalism is an art, then critics are artists.
Is it on the same level? Well, maybe! You have to know what you're talking about before you can criticize someone about doing a sub-par job (at least you should, and I'm sure any serious critic does). You can't say "Sally's latest book had a weak plot and generic characters" if you haven't read classic books or well-written authors and understand weak plot and generic characters. Ya know? You also can't use the same word over and over again. Dismal, desperate, reaching, failing, sub-par, distant, poor, lacking, un-convincing, etc. can all be used in place of "This movie was bad" so don't use the same one!

Umm that's all I can really think of right now.. convinced? I'm not, lol. It just feels weird to say critics are artists. :P


"What if a kid goes to school after seeing Kill Bill and starts slicing up other kids? You know, I'll take that chance! Violent films don't turn children into violent people. They may turn them into violent filmmakers but that's another matter altogether."

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#4 2008-08-27 16:53:16

strangeshe
Hierarch
From: Texas
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 10857

Re: Is criticism an art?

Our language acknowledges a difference between there being "an art" to performing a task with particular skill and the creations we typically, traditionally acknowledge as Les Beaux Arts -- The Arts.  Painting, drawing, sculpture; song, poetry, dance; telling a story; acting, perhaps.

In each of these traditional Arts, there is and probably always has been much debate over whether a given work, X, is "true" Art or not. Are comics Art? Can Art be created with a computer? frex.

And writing. Art? We're all very familiar with the squabbling that goes on in the book world: "is this work Literature (capital L)?" "Can genre fiction be considered Literature?"

Can Non-Fiction be considered Art? I don't know what others think, but I tend to think not. Non-fiction can be very well written, the wordsmith particularly skilled at his craft -- but Art, capital A?

Art. Artifice. Making something up. Creating something from nothing. Telling a story.

Non-fiction -- including journalism and criticism -- if done properly, deals with facts, truth. (Or at least as much truth as the writer is able to access, comprehend.) As with any field, and in The Arts, there are some who are better at it than others. Hard to define how one knows, but one does.

What about Sports? The Olympics just past give us endless examples of those who are the best at their... Art? No. Game. Sport. Fact. Feat. Not fiction, not story-telling, not Art. Yet, they exhibit such skill and talent we often refer to it as "an art."

There is "an art" to cooking well, to baking, to brewing. There is "an art" to gardening, to raising animals, to raising children, perhaps. There is "an art" to many -- perhaps all -- human endeavors.

But as for journalism being Art, no. I don't think so. And I believe criticism is a category of journalism, reporting, editorializing. There are better critics and worst critics (and no one likes 'em, if you believe the old saw).

There are Art critics, but no critic Arts. ;)

(and don't get me started on the state of what passes as journalism these days.)

 

#5 2008-08-27 17:00:24

Rook
Pilgrim
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 3710
Website

Re: Is criticism an art?

Ad1tu wrote:

Well.. seeing "criticism" and "webcomics" in the same sentence automatically makes me say No, webcomics criticizing games is not art. But, thinking about it, when webcomics criticize a game, they don't come out and say "This game sucked." Ok sometimes they do. The one I know most about (because I read it) is Ctrl-Alt-Del and Ethan goes a little bonkers over a bad game, but that's his character. The author can express his opinions through his characters, but he has to make sure it doesn't come off as something that's way off base. For example, Ethan goes loopy for MMOs. For him to suddenly hate them wouldn't be in character (well... it might...) so it wouldn't make sense. So, for webcomics, dialogue and character development are an art, so critcizing I think is, too.

Well, to clarify on that point, Ad1tu, it was actually about critics writing reviews of webcomics.  Like this guy (a review by Eric Burns-White, who is considered the Roger Ebert of webcomic reviewers).  I guess I was just trying to frame it in the context of the conversation.  (Though that doesn't invalidate your response or anything. :) )

One of the things that kinda gets me is that works of art can be critiqued.  But can critiques be critiqued?  I suppose so, but that creates a weird feedback loop where there seems to be no end.  Another thing is when you call a critic out on something, a typical response is, "Well, it's just a matter of opinion after all."  Whereas an artwork, whether visual, written, or musical, has to stand for something.

I think you raise a very good point that there's a difference between constructive criticism and reviews.  What bugs me about the original Newsrama article is that it's reviews that the pro-critic crowd wants to elevate as an artform.


"You should be like Calvin. His best friend was a tiger, he always went on dope adventures, and if anything stood in his way, he just peed on it." --- Troy (Don Glover) on Community

Webcomic Overlook (Reviews) | Rooktopia! (Blog about other things)

 

#6 2008-08-27 19:44:59

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Palmerston North, NZ
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4030
Website

Re: Is criticism an art?

"Critiques being critiqued creating a weird feedback loop where there seems to be no end" is the alternate title for the department known as "English Studies".

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a fiance to hide from.


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#7 2008-08-28 15:38:51

Rook
Pilgrim
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 3710
Website

Re: Is criticism an art?

Oh, man, what have I started?

Apparently, by linking to Websnark, Eric Burns-White has apparently decided to respond to my original question.  Also, he doesn't agree with me when I called him the Roger Ebert of webcomics.  I'd copy and paste his essay here, but it is, um, some 2,700 words long.


"You should be like Calvin. His best friend was a tiger, he always went on dope adventures, and if anything stood in his way, he just peed on it." --- Troy (Don Glover) on Community

Webcomic Overlook (Reviews) | Rooktopia! (Blog about other things)

 

#8 2008-08-29 17:42:14

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Ohio
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 2063

Re: Is criticism an art?

Just a bit of curiousity here, from the original article... "I’m not reviewing the book for his sake."

So, why do most "New York Times Bestseller"s have snippits of reviews in the front? He may not be reviewing the book for the author's sake, but there are people out there that do, whether intentionally or not. Because face it, all the books that have the best display shelves at Border's or B&N have a couple pages of reviews in the front.

And I think strangeshe hit the nail on the head. We have to make sure to separate art and Art. Journalism and criticism can be an artform, in the sense that you have to be creative with how you present the story. If everyone uses the same mold, it's rather dry. But at the same time, you can't fall into lying to sell your stuff. Word usage, title, even format can sell your story. Like painters. Yes, they all have the same paints, and they all know how to paint a landscape or portrait. But it's how you use your paint that makes it interesting. Journalism is about using your words to draw people in.

... or maybe I just have an overly romatic view of what journalism is supposed to be. :P


"What if a kid goes to school after seeing Kill Bill and starts slicing up other kids? You know, I'll take that chance! Violent films don't turn children into violent people. They may turn them into violent filmmakers but that's another matter altogether."

What do you want?

Come to the Dark Side--We have anti-cookies!

 

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